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Showing posts sorted by relevance for query bigfoot days. Sort by date Show all posts

Friday, February 20, 2009

Call for BIGFOOT Speakers, 2009 Willow Creek Bigfoot Days


Hello all,

I've been asked by the Willow Creek Bigfoot Days Committee to put out an invitation to all Bigfooters to speak or present at the Bigfoot Days event here on Labor Day weekend, the first weekend in September. There has long been expression of a desire to see the event become more of a Bigfoot-related thing, and not just a small-town community parade and celebration. Perhaps this year we can bump it up a little, advertise that we'll have speakers and a more visible presence of Sasquatch in the event, and put this event on the Bigfoot map in a real way.

Since we don't always have a 40th or 50th anniversary of something BF-related, perhaps this can be a yearly meeting opportunity for the Bigfooting community. Also, it could be a first step out for you on a trip up to Bluff Creek.

This would not be a paying job, but it may be possible for some travel expenses to be covered, budget permitting. This is a small, not-for-profit event run by local volunteers.

However, any of you with books or merchandise, or web sites and research programs you'd like to promote (or just for the fun of it) can pay the low fee of $25.00 to get a vendor table in the after-parade festival event down in the park. There are normally large crowds, music, food, a car show, and lots of vendors at this part of the celebration.

If any of you are on the various BF forums, or have a blog or website or BF contacts list then please pass this invitation along.

More than likely Al Hodgson will again participate this year (health permitting, of course). He'd probably be willing and able to introduce any speakers. To my mind it would be great to have more than one speaker, presenting differing views on the subject, perhaps leading up to a debate of some kind. The presentations would be given in an outdoor park situation, with a PA system and small stage. It is almost certainly going to be a beautiful, warm and sunny day at that time of year here in Willow Creek, CA.

DEADLINE FOR SIGNING UP WILL BE LATE JUNE-EARLY JULY.
All official, business-related contacts regarding participation can be directed to Samantha Brown, member of the committee, using her cell phone number: 1-707-845-5083.
Or, if you just want to chat generally about BF and the event, feel free to call me at Bigfoot Books, 1-530-629-3076.

It would be great to see at least some of you make it up here!

Best, in the name of Sasquatch,

Steve

*******************************************

Promotional photo featuring Al Hodgson in front of the Willow Creek-China Flat Museum and Bigfoot Collection, 2008

http://bigfootcountry.net/home/bigfoot_collection

http://bigfootcountry.net/home/bigfoot_collection/bigfoot_exhibit.html

http://redwoods.info/showrecord.asp?id=3689
(Official Travel Site of Humboldt County, Home of the World Famous California Redwoods)

Thursday, April 1, 2010

Reading THE HOOPA PROJECT: A Study in Contrasts and Confusion

THE HOOPA PROJECT: A Fact and Logic Check and Close Reading, Section One. (A Book Review.)

It was on April Fool's Day that Skamania County made its Bigfoot Ordinance, Mr. Paulides.

Paulides, David; Harvey Pratt, illustrations. THE HOOPA PROJECT: Bigfoot Encounters in California. Blaine, WA: Hancock House Publishers, 2008.

First, don't take this review the wrong way. The Hoopa Project is, despite certain flaws, still a fascinating book. Say what you will about David Paulides and Harvey Pratt, they have done some interesting work, some of it unique. NABS decided to focus on one limited area of Bigfoot activity in this book, and also focussed on a particular cultural group, the Hupa Indians. This gives the book a certain strength and distinction. When we first read it upon its release we barrelled through it in just a few days, drawn on by intrigue to the end. However, as we went along there was a certain feeling of unease. We found ourselves repeatedly asking, Did he really say that? Isn't this or that point just plain wrong? That is not even begining to mention all of the typos and poor general editing. The redundancies in the book, with affidavits repeating the narrative for each sighting report, prove to be highly tedious, and hence the book could have been reduced to nearly half its size--but that is for another blog entry.

Here we cover just the first section, and think it will be clear if you read to the end of this part of our review, that the book sits on rather shaky foundations. In saying what we say below, please note, we are not trying to debunk Bigfoot, but rather to debunk the statements and methods found in this particular Bigfoot book. Hence, we do not necessarily question or doubt the Skookum cast or various hair and scat DNA finds, but Paulides' use of these in his narrative. It is our feeling that he and NABS are so eager to conquer the field and the issue at hand, so confident in their own investigative abilities, so concerned with outdoing all the other Bigfoot groups (especially the BFRO) and researchers, that they get going right from the start on the wrong foot, so to speak. If we are to prove Bigfoot to the world, or to make the field at all respectable to the general public or the scientific world, then we simply MUST have solid methodological foundations, and our analyses of evidence and reports should be sound, not fraught with gross errors of logic and procedure. If the story isn't straight to begin with, then everything that follows is corrupted in sequence, and the errors compound multiplicatively upon those that preceeded them.

After Paulides came out as being in support of the "Bluff Creek Massacre Theory" (blogged about earlier by us HERE and HERE, and the MK interview HERE and HERE) we really had to revisit those misgivings. We decided to go back and do a review. What follows is a close reading of the book's first 51 pages, with an eye bent to ascertaining fact, fiction, and error in the book. The sightings reports which constitute the majority of the book are best left for later. Despite minor errors and glitches of methodology and assumption in this later part of the book, the reports are still good, and need to be appreciated for what they are--personal stories, anecdotal evidence, and at least suggestive of certain traits of the Creature and of a particular Native American culture in Northwestern California. We particularly appreciate this part of the book, despite misgivings about the introductory part, as we, too, live in the same region, and we receive the same kinds of reports from locals constantly.

All of us make mistakes--that is for sure. Even Bigfoot's bLog does, we'll admit it humbly if and when it happens. We are here to learn, after all, not to dictate. However, we feel there is a real need to run through parts of this book in order to show how egregious the errors and illogical assumptions can be in a Bigfoot book. It would do us all well if we learned to fact-check, edit, and think correctly before we publish these things. If we bigfooters can't get the story straight, the media and public surely won't, either. Since the people outside of the world of Bigfooting cannot or will not look more deeply into the evidence, it is clear that they will evaluate the topic based upon what they can see: the behavior of the researchers, and the consistency of their productions.

Image: "Paul Bunyan Conservation Society" footprint stompers, sold at Willow Creek Bigfoot Days festival, 2007. Photo by Steven Streufert. Rant Mullens and Ray Wallace would surely have envied these desigtns!

Introduction. On pp. 9-12 we find out how Paulides got his start hunting Bigfoot: in logical error and imaginative leaps. He tells of going out with his father into the mountains in Lassen County. They find a fire down in a creekbed, "made of fifteen to twenty small twigs broken into equal pieces approximately one foot long... placed on the sand in the shape of a teepee." Now, what this is doing in a Bigfoot book is a mystery, as there has never been a convincing report of these creatures utilizing fire. He notes that there were no footprints around the fire in the sand. If so, how could it have been a Bigfoot? Why assume it was made by a Bigfoot? He then acknowledges that this is odd, and admits that he doesn't really think it was a Bigfoot. OK, so will he say it? Maybe it was a pot grower? A hobo? No, he then proposes an even more extreme idea: maybe, he says, it was one of the "Little People" spoken of by Natives. But Dave, you then say they live in caves and underground, and that they only come out at night. And if there were no signs of footprints at all, what made the fire, a levitating elf? Occam's Razor would say that he should, logically, propose the simplest solution, not go from one presumptuous assumption to an even more wild presupposition. This may have intrigued Paulides about Bigfoot, or whatever; but as the first section of the book all it does is convince us that he is a guy who is prone to leaping to odd conclusions first, rather than the simplest and most rational ones. This, then, sets the logical tone of the book.

On pp. 12-14 he speaks of the "Whistler incident," up in B.C., Canada, in 2002. What happened? Nothing. He went to Canada, hired a guide to take him fishing, and then the guide told him a story about a roadside sighting of Bigfoot, told to him after Paulides asked him a leading question about "strange, outdoor wildlife experiences." Dave says he was "mesmerized," as if he had never heard of Bigfoot before; but just a page earlier he is talking about hearing about it way back in his childhood. Why would anyone be so entranced by the most common kind of Bigfoot story: "it walked across the road"? We've all heard this a million times on TV and elsewhere. Also, later on in the book, he himself devalues such sightings as being not substantial enough.

On page 14 he mentions that he then "read everything" he could about Bigfoot. If so, then why does he not give ANY credit to previous researchers on the pages that follow throughout his own book? If one is conducting professional research and scholarship and publishes a book or monograph one is ACCOUNTABLE to the field and other scholars that have gone before one, and one is required to give citation of their works and conclusions. Rather, Paulides goes on to claim nearly all of the following pages' contents as solely his own, as if they arose only from his own original "experienced police" investigation; but he has already admitted that they did not. As we shall show, he takes credit for other's work as if these were new discoveries, effectively stealing their ideas. Plagiarism is not just the exact quoting of someone else's written words; rather, in a scholarly sense, it is the lifting and appropriation of ideas and theories, without due credit given, as well. To follow such shoddy scholarship with public arrogance and grandiose statements is even less palatable.

In Chapter One Paulides covers what he calls "Government Acknowledgement" of Bigfoot. It is HARDLY that. No official support of the Sasquatch's existence is ever released by The Government. That Skamania County, Washington (pp. 19-22), issued a declaration about Bigfoot, in Ordinance No. 69-01, on APRIL FOOL'S DAY (of all days!), 1969, is obviously part good humor, and also partly related to the desire to prevent obsessed would-be Bigfoot hunters from shooting other hunters out in the woods. This was, notably, only a year and a half after the Patterson film was shot, and Bigfoot Hunting mania was at full steam. Yet Paulides takes it as a wholly literal statement of government belief in Bigfoot.

The ordinance specifically states,
"Whereas, publicity attendant upon such real or imagined sightings has resulted in an influx of scientific investigators as well as casual hunters, many armed with lethal weapons, and... Whereas, the absence of specific laws covering the taking of specimens encourages laxity in the use of firearms and other deadly devices and poses a clear and present threat to the safety and well-being of persons living and traveling within the boundaries of Skamania County as well as to the creatures themselves...".

An amendment to it from 1984 also states, "Should the Skamania County Coroner determine any victim/creatures to have been humanoid the Prosecuting Attorney shall pursue the case under the existing laws pertaining to homicide." Isn't it clear? This ordinance has been set down to hopefully prevent murder of humans, and is NOT a clear recognition of there actually being such a creature as Bigfoot out there. Rather, it only says that IF the creature exists, then the killing of one will not be considered to be murder, and will be subject to a fine. By "Victim" they obviously mean "human," so if someone is shot (i.e., Homo sapiens) during a Bigfoot hunt, then it will be considered to be murder. Clearly, the focus is on homicide, and discouraging it, not the acknowledgement of a Creature out there. All that the ordinance says is that it is "possible," that it is "possibly" out there in the hills--hardly a bold declaration of belief and support. We bigfooters believe, sure, but Skamania County is obviously hedging their bets and playing it safely.

Paulides claims that this declaration was found when he did "an internet search for Bigfoot/Sasquatch legislation," implying (given all of his claims of an extensive professional investigative background) that he was somehow searching "official" government information sites. Rather, obviously, he just up and GOOGLED IT. One does not have to be an "Investigator" with "30 years experience" to do this. Furthermore, he must have already known about this ordinance, as it was WIDELY noted in the Bigfoot literature, in many books that he must have read if he read "everything" he could find on the subject; and it has been presented in a few television shows and Bigfoot documentaries, such as Sasquatch Odyssey. Let's just pick a few books off of our own shelf and take a look. Oh, look! Here the Skamania ordinance is in John Green's book (1978), and here it is in Peter Byrne's book (1975), and here it is again extensively covered in Robert Michael Pyle's book (1995), and here is Murphy's book (2004) with photos of the official documents and everything! Surely the author has read at least one of these major tomes, since he read "everything on Bigfoot." This is NOT, then, original research. The Hoopa Project author is not proving his big-time cop abilities, but rather just doing what any Bigfoot internet geek does. Why does he do this and not credit prior researchers? It is, it seems to us, to build up the narrative trope that he is some special kind of researcher, not just some guy reading books on Bigfoot and surfing the 'net. It is, it seems to us again, largely a fictional construction. Here comes Paulides, a guy in the field of Bigfooting only a couple of years, and already at the start he claims to be the only professional, full-time, serious Bigfoot researcher out there? Come on, and go figure.

Images: NABS/ public commercial product promotional images, found on Amazon.com.

The book brings up the Environmental Atlas for Washington, or “Provisional U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Environmental Reconnaissance Inventory of the State of Washington,” published by the Army Corps of Engineers in 1975. A lot is made of this publication, as if it proves official government recognition of the Sasquatch as a real animal. Rather, it can be taken as a slightly tongue-in-cheek presentation, but also seriously as a declaration that the creature has been REPORTED to be in Washington. The Atlas does not present this topic mockingly, and does indeed take it as a possibility that there could be something to all of the reports. It is clear, however, that the “very existence of Sasquatch… is hotly disputed,” as the Atlas states. From this point it refers repeatedly only to ALLEGED Bigfoot hair, “alleged sightings, tracks and other experiences.” It says these reports CONJURE UP the image of Bigfoot, implying a phantasm. It does not come out and SAY that the creature is actually KNOWN to be 8-12 feet tall, and so on. It is a PROVISIONAL statement. Other qualifying words used throughout this report include, “reported,” “apparently,” “if” and “generally considered.” It is also clearly reporting on what is, to the author, generally considered to be folk mythology or cultural belief particular to the region, which MIGHT have some basis in fact—might, only, is what they are saying: “If Sasquatch is purely legendary, the legend is likely to be a long time dying…. Legendary or actual, Sasquatch excites a great popular interest in Washington.” See, this Atlas includes cultural dimensions, and not just environmental facts. Also, this Atlas is not an official production of the entire USA government, nor a statement of official governmental or institutional policy. It is a regional side-project, done by a certain and limited agency of the government only. It is no more official policy than a particular wildlife study or environmental impact report done by someone working for the government.

Paulides, though he at other points in his larger work is clearly suspicious of government cover-up (especially with his belief in the "Massacre" conspiracy theories, and his recent belief that an Oregon lake was closed by authorities because of Bigfoot activity), here places great credibility in government: “If you believe in your government and you believe they have the best evidence, laboratories, and tools available, then I believe the government is taking a bold step forward in the authentication of Bigfoot/Sasquatch as a creature.” (p. 19) However, there is no real original study being done in this Atlas, and its imprimatur is limited. It is a short summary of previously known aspects of the issue only. There was no new testing done officially in this project, though there is a mention of some hair having been analyzed at some point by the FBI with inconclusive results: “no known animal” does not necessarily prove Bigfoot. If one actually reads this brief bit from the Atlas one can clearly see that it is nothing official, scientific, nor comprehensive. On page 17 Paulides goes to great length to say how “extremely competent, intelligent, and technical” the US Army Corps of Engineers is, how “cautious” they are. But does he not recall how the Corps was largely blamed for the poor design and management of the levees that broke and inundated New Orleans during the Hurricane Katrina debacle? If we know one thing for certain about the government, it is that it is a vast, compartmentalized bureaucracy, one often at odds with itself, and in a great many instances incompetent and self-contradictory. Again, Paulides claims he found this Atlas in his “personal search of the United States government records,” but it was well known for years, seen or spoken of in many Bigfoot books and websites. We are sure he just read about it somewhere, and then wrote to the Corps to get a copy—no P.I. work necessary there; and no credit is given for previous work on the Atlas Bigfoot article. Oh well.

Images: From the Corps of Engineers Atlas of WA, showing Sasquatch in both. Click to Enlarge.
What does the Corps really say? The BFRO asked and here is what they say: “But whenever they are questioned by reporters who seek clarification on the issue of whether the Corps or the state of Washington officially acknowledges the existence of bigfoots, they steadfastly claim that the listing in the Atlas was an ‘error’ or a ‘joke’ that was not corrected prior to the printing of the atlas.” And this appears on the BFRO Blue Forum: "A biologist/writer was assigned to put together the WA state atlas. The criteria was defined broadly as environmental elements of interest to public (because the atlas was made for the public). The writer spent some time determining what things were of great interest to the public, that [are] broadly environmental in nature. The sasquatch was one of the items that came up consistently." So, this project was for popular consumption, not official, and was mainly (apparently) written by one biologist, not the entire Corps or US Government! Personally, we think it is cool that Sasquatch made it into the Atlas, and we think personally that the Creature does exist; but this Atlas IS NOT proof that the government agrees with us bigfooters. Why is Bigfoot in the Atlas, then, you ask? Because BIGFOOT IS COOL.

Anyway, let's ramble onward....

The next section, starting on page 28, deals with how NABS (Dave, that is) "started the search," and found the location where they (he) would search for Bigfoot. Obviously, this is mostly a foregone conclusion--just look at the maps in John Green's old books and you'll have every clue you need. He proceeds to try to make his choice seem quasi-scientific, but again just runs through all of the basics already covered by Green and others decades earlier; and he glaringly does not give one bit of credit to Green or anyone else. He says he spent "weeks of working the Internet and deciphering graphs and charts," but then jumps immediately into talking about the area around Hoopa, CA. He does not really explain at this point why he chose this area save that basically he kind of liked the look of it. It had the Patterson-Gimlin film site nearby, and lots of Native Americans. What more could one hope for? It is only later in the text, presumably narratively after he had decided on Hoopa already, that he begins to try to build a data structure to explain his choice. Almost all of this basic data was contained in John Green's books and SASQUATCH DATABASE, now available online (click the highlighted text).

Image: One of John Green's early pamphlet books, predating and pre-configuring Paulides' research by over three decades.

Fact checks, pp. 28-34:

• He says that Hoopa Valley is one of only two valleys in this region. He is wrong. Basically every river has some kind of valley somewhere, Willow Creek has a valley. There is the Eel River valley, the Mattole valley, and on and on...

• He says the creature in the PGF is "running across Bluff Creek," but actually the creature WALKS away from the creek on a sandbar.

• He says that Louse Camp is on Bluff Creek, six miles south from the P-G film site, but it is NOT. It is 2.5 miles as the creek flows, west then southward, and even less by direct line.

• He says that there have been "few actual sightings in the new century" in this area, but we know and have heard of many, many of them, and know some who have seen Bigfoot right up from Louse Camp in recent years. Several BFRO researchers, as well as NABS-affiliated researcher Sean Fries of Weaverville, have reported constant wood knocks, vocalizations and other signs of Bigfoot activity in the area. Paulides is utterly WRONG when he says about Bluff Creek, "The weather can be treacherous, the trail is very tough and you won't see Bigfoot. You had a chance of seeing him in this region in the 1950s and maybe early 60s, but not now." Huh, what now Dave? This is just not true, based on no real research at all, and is a statement made simply off the top of his head. He uses it to make Hoopa seem like a more active zone. Also, there are roads in the area, not trails, and they are mostly fairly well graded and leveled. Bigfoot activity in the area is reported regularly, with new sightings and reports each year that goes by.

• He uses the name "Hoopa" to describe the people of that tribal group and reservation affiliation, though their official name is HUPA. Hoopa is the name of the city and reservation, not the people. This is a fundamental error that should never be made by someone who has supposedly spent two years living among these people.

•  He states (pg. 29) that the Hupa received their reservation in 1876, but in fact it was 1864 when the treaty was ratified and the reservation "comprising 90% of their original homelands" was established. (Source: Hutchinson Encyclopedia article). He says that it was established under President Ulysses S. Grant, but Grant was only in office March 4, 1869 – March 4, 1877. This "official occupancy" recognized by the US government came only after the millennia-long homeland had been disrupted by the coming of European-Americans and the consequent decades of genocide, colonialism and "Indian Wars." It is a fact, though, that as remote and resilient as they are, these Natives never lost their traditions and connection to the land that they share with Oh-Mah.

• On the same page he says that Highway One is on the coast from Hoopa, but it is known as Highway 101. He speaks of the "Bald Mountains," but the name used for those is "Bald Hills," traversed by Bald Hills Road from Weitchpec to the coast near Orick, an area important to Bigfoot history.

• On pg. 30 he speaks of the "Go Road," more properly called the G-O ROAD, or Gasquet-Orleans road. He mentions it as if it is the same road as the famed Bluff Creek Road. He conflates the G-O project with the Bigfoot track-find and equipment vandalism events of 1958, but the Bluff Creek one was a logging project road starting considerably south of Orleans. The G-O road was to end in Orleans, not down near the mouth of Bluff Creek, nearer to Weitchpec than Orleans, where the road Jerry Crew and Ray Wallace made famous starts. The Bluff Creek road runs past Louse Camp up into the dead-end of the creek's headwaters area for logging access. As evidenced by the Notice Creek bridge, which bears the marking "1958," built by Jerry's crew, this is the road project that the Bigfoot events happened on, not any of the G-O Road projects.

Image: Bluff Creek Basin on Google Earth. The Bluff Creek Road starts way at BOTTOM, Orleans and the G-O Road turnoff are at right. They are NOT the same road. Way up to north and west is the PGF site, where the creek bends eastward into the  basin's headwaters.

• He claims on the same page that it was the "Hoopa" and Yurok Tribes that fought the battle in court to end the G-O Road construction before it entered Native sacred mountain peaks in the Siskiyou wilderness area. In fact, it was the Sierra Club and the passage of NEPA that got that ball rolling, and then a remarkable alliance of Native and environmental concerns later combined to assure the protection under the Indian Religious Freedom Act and eventual declaration of an official Siskyou Wilderness Area and also the Smith River Wild and Scenic National Recreation Area. Combining these two areas, plus the cost of fighting legal battles, eventually closed the road project only seven miles short of completion at its middle. One source says "The GO Road battle was won on environmental grounds, not on grounds of religious freedoms. As one Yurok stated, to establish the area as wilderness is to completely miss the point." (See article HERE.) 

• He says that Patterson and Gimlin came to Bluff Creek to film a Bigfoot, but their stated intention was to film tracks of the creature found recently. He says, wrongly, that they “left the area of the Go Road and started to slowly make their way by horseback down into the Bluff Creek region. Just as they were about to reach Bluff Creek they each saw movement in the creek…,” etc. ACTUALLY, no. They DROVE up Bluff Creek Road from down near the mouth at the Klamath, up from the Bluff Creek Company on the road to Louse Camp, where they camped just upstream from the campsite and Notice Creek. They were in the area for DAYS or WEEKS before eventually spotting the creature, and were riding up and down the creek a lot. Where Paulides gets his version of the story is surely a source in thin air, not actual research of documented sources.

• Furthermore, speaking of the filming (pg. 31), Paulides says they were using a 35mm camera, but it was a 16mm camera.

• Speaking of the Creature he says experts have determined that she was 7-foot, 3-inches and over 700 pounds, but ACTUALLY, no one has really been able to finally agree on or conclusively prove these measurements, and there are many theories out there that differ pretty widely. There are whole books written about this subject, but which Paulides has simply not bothered to read and absorb.

• Speaking of the film he says that the Creature was carrying "something" (a stick), as if this is an established fact. Actually, it is pretty much only M.K. Davis who sees that stick. We can't! This is verifiable proof that Paulides was under the sway of Davis’ odd and conspiratorial thinking even at this early, pre-Bluff Creek Massacre Theory stage of things.

• He speaks of muscles moving in the right thigh and right shoulder of the Creature. In fact, muscles can be seen moving ALL OVER the Bigfoot in the film, especially in the back and buttocks. This is why it looks real upon close inspection. Why does he select only two limited spots? Odd.

• He speaks of the creature "on tape," but actually, it was on FILM, from a real movie camera, not a video tape machine (which did not exist in the consumer market at the time). He also states that the film has been declared by "professors" and "experts" to be impossible to fake; but the sad fact is that way more such figures think that it IS a hoax. The film has never been finally or credibly debunked, but Paulides should say that there is still much disagreement on that topic.

• He speaks of Willow Creek’s Bigfoot Days as being “a huge event that draws university professors, professional Bigfoot hunters and a variety of amateur explorers.” Has he ever BEEN to this event? It is not some kind of academic conference. In fact, it is a small community parade with a festival of vendors and a car show down in the park. It has very little serious Bigfoot content, mostly consisting of gorilla suits, or knick-knack sellers hawking novelty goods.

• He says Willow Creek area itself has “relatively few” sightings “compared with other regions in Northern California,” but in fact, as evidenced by reports in the Bigfoot Books store and around town there are MANY sightings right around this area, every bit as much as on the Hoopa Reservation. This stuff is in the historical records and books, and even gets reported in Paulides' sequel, Tribal Bigfoot. Living here in Willow Creek, we ourselves pass by a large number of Bigfoot sighting areas every single day, and new ones continue to be told to us.

• He says (pg. 32) there are no public campgrounds anywhere in the Hoopa region, but in fact Tish Tang Creek, which he mentions, DOES have a public camping site. In fact, he MENTIONS “Tish Tang Campgrounds” on the very same page, in his sightings chart.

• Astonishingly (pg. 33), he says that “the Hoopa Valley has been an area with significant human habitation for over 250 years.” In another place he says "almost 200 years." IN FACT, the Hupa people claim residence in the area for over 4,000 years! And this is just what they remember. Archaeology probably proves or will prove an even more ancient occupancy--we need to look into this further. (See the Wikipedia HUPA article.)

• He speaks of a finding of an animal bed, and then another instance where some scientists found some bedding material. Apparently they found it slightly odd, and found some deer bones near by it. Paulides leaps to the conclusion that it simply must have been Bigfoot, as what other animal would make a bed and leave bones around? This is NOT proof of Bigfoot, but just proof that some bones and a bed were found. A-hem! As Ray Crowe used to say, "Keep your Skepticals on."

Getting the picture yet??? Well, that was JUST A FEW PAGES of the book! Read on for more.

The next section, "By The Numbers" (pg. 34-45) is a somewhat lengthy attempt at statistical accumulation and analysis. It is interesting, but it almost exactly replicates (WITHOUT credit given) the same work that John Green has done over the decades. Green was the first Bigfoot researcher we know of to attempt serious data accumulation and systemization, and to put it into a properly constructed computer database. This was back when computers still had the green, text-only screens, folks. Anyway, the conclusions Paulides comes up with completely mirror Green's in terms of the conclusion that Sasquatch/Bigfoot creatures generally tend to live in moist, rain-prone, forested and mountainous regions. Nothing new there!

He'd already decided to study the west coast, so he immediately excludes sightings hotspots such as Ohio, Florida, Texas, Pennsylvania, and northern Michigan and Wisconsin. This is unfortunate, but understandable--after all, he wanted to do his research in Northern California, fairly close to his home, right? So, his sightings research is initially biased in that he only searched for sightings in the far western, coastal states.

Also, one notes that his list of research sites is rather limited. He said he had read "everything" on Bigfoot earlier, but here there is only one book (Bigfoot Casebook) and the Track Record newsletter (known to be up, down, and all over the place). The rest of the list consists of eight web sites. The first two sites on his list are in fact NABS web sites! Did he REALLY think he could sneak this by us as ostensible research? Nabigfootsearch.com and CaliforniaBigfootsearch.com... that's odd. How could he create and gather his statistics for this analysis from his own web sites if he had just gotten started in accumulating data? That would be, um, impossible. You can't build a database without... building it! Anyway....
BFRO.net--great! A fine database there. But then the GCBRO.com site?
You've got to be kidding. That site on our checking today had only TWO sightings for all of Bigfoot-infested Humboldt County! OregonBigfoot.com has a nice database, and a site which we highly recommend--another good choice. However, Bigfootinfo.org had only 17 sightings for all of California. Next comes "Home.clara.net," which is not even a Bigfoot site, but rather an internet service provider's home page! Ugh. The last, BigfootEncounters.com is a great general site, but their sightings reports are not in any proper database format. The California list has no source citation. They are basically just long lists organized by location, of often non-attributed or unverified, and quite often very brief sightings.

These latter type of sources do NOT live up to the criteria Paulides lays out on pg. 35, where he says that he eliminated all reports that did not have enough information: "In order to be considered significant, a sighting had to include information other than just 'Bigfoot sighted, Highway 37, 9 a.m., 1966.' I looked for dates and times, a narrative describing the circumstances, a description of the creature, and possibly the chance that the sighting was investigated to some degree." Fine, Dave, but really, nearly all Bigfoot sightings are like this stuff you want to rule out. The really good ones are all the more rare than the already rare fleeting ones. Now, when trying to accumulate raw data about a creature's distribution, it is NOT an effective method to just willy-nilly exclude sightings that do not live up to an arbitrary standard. For raw data you want... DATA! That means any credible sighting should be counted. If, however, you are seeking later to define what the best source sightings for a description of the creature are, then fine, use the best; but do not exclude data at the start--that is called BIAS.

So, whatever the results of his ten pages of analysis, we can say that at the start the data was corrupted by his bias for Northern California and Hoopa in particular. Also, some of his sources are good, but the others are simply bad or non-existent. Basically, he must have data-mined the BFRO database at that time, with a sprinkling of Bigfoot Encounters backgrounding. This would explain Matt Moneymaker's displeasure at Bigfoot Books' stocking of the NABS Bigfoot Sightings Map in our shop. A quick check encouraged by Matt revealed a huge data piracy from the BFRO site, though at least the map gives credit to the BFRO.

Paulides has gone to great lengths in this selection to at least read all of the sightings he could find in his limited selection of sources, and then to assemble it into graphs. This is a good idea, but as it is deeply flawed initially and in methodology in its selection bias, we're not sure what in it can be counted on to be reliable. Though it demonstrates clearly what was already widely known about Bigfoot and Sasquatch habitat in sightings, it fails to establish firm grounds outside of bias. He admits that there are problems, as Bigfoot is seen all over the country, and is reported to survive in some quite unlikely places which don't fit his assumptions, such as Arizona. Rather than trying to reconcile this, he just rules out the entire USA that does not fit into his presumptions. He then arbitrarily rules out any sightings or reports from before 1940. Then he declares that he only wants first-hand reports, even though a huge number of Bigfoot reports in the books and records are second and third- hand. He shows no stable criteria for his selection or de-selection of sightings, as if it is just up to how he feels about a report. This is not scientific. Then he goes even further, this time entering full illogic: "A Bigfoot incident in this book (for affidavit reasons) constitutes an occurrence that can be directly related to accepted and known Bigfoot behavior." So, we take it from this, only those reports that correspond with David Paulides' ASSUMPTIONS about what Bigfoot is like or how it acts will fit in to his modeling. In this regard, if one thinks Bigfoot is "human," then one will SEE Bigfoot as such, and it will turn up in one's reportage and forensic illustrations. This does not make sense. Bigfoot is NOT an established creature yet, though many have seen it or seen signs that may have been made by it. Bigfoot is a cryptid thus far because we DO NOT yet know all of the facts about it. Sure, patterns of behavior and size and shape arise, but they have not been absolutely verified. Therefore, it stands to reason that we should remain open-minded about what a Bigfoot is and what it can do. We assume that they are bipedal; so should we rule out ALL quadrupedal reports? They are supposed to be brown in color; so should we rule out any that are grey or silvery in color?

Already Paulides has ruled out sightings that don't include more than a date, place, time, any that are just fleeting road crossings, any that don't fit into his standard model (another bias), any that occur outside of his selected study area, etc., etc. So WHAT IS LEFT? It seems to us that the vast majority of Bigfoot sightings occur outside of the parameters Paulides has selected. Most are brief, many are vague, there is great uncertainty in some where the witness might be unsure of what they saw, and there are many that are told to only a few people often years after they happened, with details perhaps vaguely documented. Also, we cannot forget that perception is relative, so that how one person sees a Bigfoot will differ from how another sees one. Some of the sightings are surely misperceptions. Some of them are tall tales. How does statistician Dave decide which are which? As he does not make this very clear, all of his data, though interesting, is basically useless as statistic or science. It is ten pages of confirmation bias glaringly delineated.

In the end he selects Humboldt County, CA, which should have been obvious to begin with; but then he chooses Hoopa for nearly completely arbitrary reasons. "Hoopa seemed to be a natural location to set up my office and hang a shingle as it was set in a valley with all the amenities of home." So, after all of this work trying to find where Bigfoot lives, he opts for comfort. Then he repeats his false presumption that Hupa heritage goes back "almost two hundred years," when in fact it goes back thousands. He mentions the climate of Hoopa, but just about anywhere in Humboldt has that climate, with rain, a body of water, mountains, wilderness and parks. He even mentions that the "Bigfoot capital of the world," Willow Creek, is right nearby, as is Bluff Creek, where the PGF was shot. So, why not set up shop in Willow Creek, or Orleans? It is clear from what he says here: The area (Hoopa) also comes with an interesting history, a reservation, and a region that is almost completely surrounded by wilderness areas. So we see, rather clearly, that the selection that was the basis and foundation of this whole research and book project was based upon personal interest in this particular Native American reservation, and also upon the convenience of the researcher. This is bias, pure and simple, and hardly follows logically or necessarily from the preceding statistical analysis. Hence, we can call the whole process a distortion or a sham. His “Decision” was in fact no more scientific or credible than if we were to just up and say, hey, let’s go camp at Mount Shasta and look for UFOs and Lemurians!

Paulides goes on to talk briefly about the local Natives' "Sacred High Country." He puts it "by coincidence... directly in the middle of the Bluff Creek region, but in fact it is to the north and west of Bluff Creek. He speaks of "tribal elders" making the trek into this high, mountain peak area, but in fact it is mainly reserved only for the tribal groups' medicine men or shamans to make this pilgrimage. He rather superficially describes this quest, in what we feel are fairly ethnocentric terms, saying they go there to "pray to their gods." This is the general dismissal that old anthropologists always made to describe the "strange beliefs" that people they did not understand practiced and followed. In fact, this point demonstrates what is perhaps the greatest deficiency in The Hoopa Project--that of true ethnographic exploration. There is almost no real description of this cultural background so vital to understanding these people, and nearly all of the conversations are with younger tribal members, non-elders, dealing with events of the day, not the deep and rich reality that would give substance to any book about these issues. Despite all of his time spent in the Hoopa Valley, among the Hupa, here (pg 49) Paulides goes to "court documents" go get to the idea that this area was the "center of the Indians' universe." OK, but what does it MEAN? We get no real insight into this realm from this book, sadly.

Images: Above and below, the Bigfoot Mural at the Early Bird "Bigfoot Burger" restaurant. Photos by Steven Streufert.

He then concludes the section we are analyzing with "Best Bigfoot Evidence, Past and Present." He speaks of the camcorder as revolutionizing the documentation of sightings, but in fact there are very few videos of Bigfoot, as opposed to the Patterson-Gimlin Film, that have any real quality or credibility. Well, maybe the Freeman video.... He talks about newspaper reports, but didn't he already rule these out earlier as unreliable and not first-hand enough for him? He speaks of DNA from hair and scat being "classified" as Bigfoot, as it often comes back as "not on file" and close to primate. However, the fact is that though these results are intriguing, they are often inconclusive, and often are not on file because the supposed DNA has been corrupted or degraded. DNA of a Bigfoot has never been verified AS from a Bigfoot because there as yet is not a standard set example of what a sample of Bigfoot DNA really is. This is a topic that constitutes interesting possibility, but has yet to prove much. He glances over a few historical bits at this point, with great superficiality and preconceptions.

Odd parasites have been claimed to have been found in some crap that was supposedly from a Bigfoot, but no one knows if Bigfoot made that pile of scat, and no one has to our knowledge actually seen Bigfoot take a dump. Despite this, Dave seems to know that Bigfoot scat looks like "a giant human scat, very large." He speaks of the more recent analyses of footprints done by Jeff Meldrum and Jimmy Chilcutt, but he fails to credit them in particular, and rather just proceeds to use general terms that exaggerate the number of academics and scientists who have looked into the issue and found the evidence to be convincing. In actuality, very few scientists find the evidence credible. This is what makes Meldrum special, and he should really be named and cited here, not just vaguely alluded to. He speaks of the Skookum cast, which may very well be an imprint of a Bigfoot butt, but he totally disregards the fact that there is still hot dispute over this artifact, with many claiming that it is clearly an impression made by an elk. Despite this inconclusive status, Paulides is ready to make the leap into self-validation: "This cast has validated much of the information about the physical aspects (size, weight, body structure, etc.) of Bigfoot." In fact, it really does not do this, but it is still a very interesting piece of possible evidence.

The last paragraph in this section reveals even more. "I am purposely avoiding an extensive description of the Bigfoot evidence because that is not what this book is about. There are many outstanding books in print that offer exhaustive insights into evidence that will satisfy anyone's craving in that area." Well, if this book isn't about evidence, then what IS it about? We'd really like to know. Sightings are evidence, and throughout the book he makes claims to various remains as evidence for the creature. We'd argue that without the analysis of any evidence we are left only with anecdotes. They are stories. Surely an ex-detective police investigator would know this. The stories are great, that is for sure. Some of them are very credible. But don't we want something that could "hold up in court" or convince others that this stuff is real? We need a convincing set of evidence to do this, complete with a logical and coherent system of investigation and methodology. Also, if Paulides is not going to quote or cite any of the researchers or authors of these "outstanding books" on Bigfoot, could he not at least have a Bibliography or Works Cited section? For all of its intriguing and very interesting accounts, The Hoopa Project simply comes up lacking in the end, and leaves any intelligent reader scratching his or her head in skeptical confusion on nearly every page we've reviewed here.

In Bigfooting we need to establish historical consistency, along with logic in methodology, or else we are a rudderless ship that will look like its foudering (or floundering) to the masses at large. Bigfooting needs to become more professional and serious if it is ever to gain the respect it deserves. We need PEER REVIEW, people. It cannot survive solely upon egotism and wild theoretical speculation. Sadly, with so many who just jump into it, without earning their bones and polishing their chops, it often looks like a circus. And human, all too human....

We will continue with this project on The Hoopa Project sometime in the future. Up to this point we have covered the major section of the book preceding the sightings reports. These reports are good, but soon our critical axe will fall in their direction, too. Look for our Part Two coming soon!

BIGFOOT'S BLOG interviewed David Paulides of NABS in 2009, when they released Ray Crowe's newsletter THE TRACK RECORD on CD.
Read that here:
DAVID PAULIDES, of NORTH AMERICA BIGFOOT SEARCH, Interview and Discussion with Bigfoot Books

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ANGRY BIGFOOT SPEAKS!

Me so mad, me speech-less! Me fume. Me fester. Me boil over and make stink from here to Weitchpec! Me go roll more rock down in road now. Keep Bluff Creek closed all summer long!

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This weblog, website, soapbox, or whatever you call it is copyright 2010, Steven Streufert, Bigfoot Books Intergalactic. Sharing and borrowing is allowed (and often practiced by us, too) if you give full credit and a fair and nice link back to our page. Thanks!

Saturday, February 20, 2010

Interview with AL HODGSON, Mr. Bigfoot of Willow Creek, PART TWO


PART TWO OF OUR INTERVIEW WITH WILLOW CREEK'S BIGFOOT GO-TO GUY, AL HODGSON,
CONDUCTED AND TRANSCRIBED BY STEVEN STREUFERT, WITH ASSISTANCE FROM "C.I." ON FEBRUARY 4th, 2010:
PART TWO, OF THREE.

This being the second part (of three) of the interview, the reader should really read Al Hodgson Interview, PART ONE and Introduction HERE.  Need PART THREE? Go HERE.

This is the second fifty minutes of an interview that lasted over two and a quarter hours. The rest will be posted here soon in one more segment. View Part One through the link above first! This interview was conducted with Al in his Willow Creek home, off Hodgeson Road, by Steven Streufert, with assistance from “C.I.” (who wishes to remain anonymous). Preparation of question background was assisted by “K.A.,” also anonymous, and aided by the ever-perspicacious Daniel Perez. Our investigation of the film site location was also aided by Cliff Barackman, James Bobo Fay, the above two, and many others on the ground and along the way.

Images: Above, Al Hodgson in his home, 2010, a bottle of "Bigfoot Red" wine in the background; below, the presentation page of Roger Patterson's book, inscribed personally to Al by the author (the dedication lines: "To the young of heart who seldom say 'impossible'; To the adventurer who doesn't stop at the foothills, but penetrates deep into the forest; To the individualist who has enough fortitude to stand up for what he thinks is right; To all of those who seek the truth no matter what the cost." Photos by Steven Streufert. CLICK TO VIEW ENLARGED.

When we left off we were discussing the early events in the history of Bigfoot in the Willow Creek and Bluff Creek areas. We’d asked…

BIGFOOT BOOKS: But, you were running the store, and probably got a lot of reports coming in at that time?
(40:38 of 2:17:11) Now continuing….

AL HODGSON: I did, and I….What really got to me, or how I really got into this thing—I’m sure you heard about Betty Allen?

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Betty Allen the journalist?

AL HODGSON: Yep.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: She was a stringer for the Times, the Humboldt Times, right? Willow Creek correspondent…

AL HODGSON: Yeah. What she did was… there was a column in the Times, it was called “R.F.D.”

BIGFOOT BOOKS: What did R.F.D. stand for? I’ve never been able to figure that out.

AL HODGSON: Well, that was a name for a post office… R.F.D., what was that, it was a name on the post office.

C.I.: I think it was “Rural Free Delivery.”

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Yeah, yeah. Didn’t Andrew Genzoli write that after, later on?

AL HODGSON: Yeah, it was his column. But Betty was a reporter, but she was also a guest on his column. So, she was the one that got to me, she kept after me.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And she lived up here in Willow Creek?

AL HODGSON: Oh yeah. And see… Did you know Lincoln Martin?

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Heard the name. Yeah, I…

AL HODGSON: Nice guy. I knew his folks, and…. Anyway, she was staying and taking care of Lincoln’s mother, up here at South Fork Bridge, on this side. Lincoln lived across river, and this was on this side of the river, where Lincoln was born and where he lived. Anyway, she [Betty Allen] kept after me... one day she come to me and she said, “Al, there’s been some tracks up there. Would you take me up there?”

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And she didn’t want to go by herself, there was that old story that she was with… [Involving Bigfoot/Oh-Mah abducting human women.]

Images: Above, Genzoli with Jerry Crew and footprint cast, archival, Humboldt Times; below, Al Hodgson with the Patty creature, speaking at the 2007 PGF Anniversary Celebration in Willow Creek. Photo: Steven Streufert.

AL HODGSON: I think somebody else was taking her up there before, but she didn’t want to go by herself. But anyway, she talked me into taking her up, and I got hooked to it. I saw some tracks. Well, they knew there were some tracks there, and they had them covered in big pieces of bark, so that, the trucks'd go by they just dust them out, they get covered in dust. They just covered them with bark so that the tracks would be there. So, anyway, we went up there and made casts, and then I found some tracks down in the creek. And Francis [Al’s wife] always will say that they’re fake.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And she still doesn’t believe. I always heard that she was a hard-core skeptic.

AL HODGSON: She was.

C.I.: And when were these first tracks found?

AL HODGSON: Sixty-seven or something like that. I can’t remember. I can’t remember now.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: So it took you almost a decade to become more interested in the Bigfoot stuff?

AL HODGSON: Yeah, she [Betty Allen] pushed me into it. And I took her up there. And I had a cast laying on the counter there at the store and, at the second store, you know where the pool hall is today?

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Yeah. Oh, you were over there?

AL HODGSON: That was the second store. The first store was on the other side. [Chuckles]

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Well, the first, the store I know is the one that is now the Clinic. I don’t remember what year it closed, but I remember when I first started coming to Willow Creek, I saw the Hodgson’s Department Store…

AL HODGSON: Ah, and the third store, we had that…. But anyway, it was in there, and the cast we had made up there, anyway, I had it laying on the counter. And a lady came in and she said, you know, that’s the same thing we had over at our house, ten years before. OK….?

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And, so, it started drawing those stories in and…

AL HODGSON: Yeah, that’s right. I didn’t believe it! Anyway, same time, got all those things, they sparked the interest. That time, I don’t know who came by the first time. John Green came down and they had the… Northwest… what they call it?

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Pacific Northwest Expedition?

Image: The Pacific NW Expedition crew at their base at Louse Camp, Bluff Creek; Tom Slick second from left, with Rene Dahinden, Bob Titmus and others. Archival.

AL HODGSON: I wasn’t… It was just across the street [Wyatt's Motel, where the PNE met], but I….

BIGFOOT BOOKS: You never met Tom Slick, or anything?

AL HODGSON: No, I wasn’t interested.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Kind of famous guy, millionaire, globe-trotting, and uh…

AL HODGSON: Yeah. That’s right. John told me that he was, that he had them with the rifle at ready all the time, they was out there, it was like they would be shot, like next to this, and uh… [Chuckles]

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Do you think they were out to shoot a Sasquatch, or were they just afraid they might have to defend themselves?

AL HODGSON: Well, I think, what he was saying was that they’re dangerous, they’re liable to kill ya!

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Like maybe on the streets of Willow Creek, hmm?

AL HODGSON: Yeah yeah right. But anyway he was, I didn’t know any of the guys at the time. Now, Peter Byrne his brother was here. I remember him, but I don’t remember seeing Peter. And after Betty Allen got me interested, and they got the word out, then they started stopping in the store to look. Well, first off it was Roger Patterson.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: When did you first meet him?

AL HODGSON: I don’t know. I can’t tell ya.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Was it ’66, or sixty…?

AL HODGSON: All I can tell you is that it was before his book was printed.

Image: Passing the torch between two generations, Al Hodgson with organizer Tom Yamarone, after speaking at the 2007 PGF Anniversary Celebration in Willow Creek. Photo: Steven Streufert.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: That was ’66, right. Now, I think he got started in 1963… or something?

AL HODGSON: Well he had to have… As a matter of fact, he gave me this book.

[Al shows his copy of Roger Patterson’s book, and the inside where it is personally inscribed to Albert Hodgson. Photos are taken, see above.]

BIGFOOT BOOKS: That’s amazing. That’s great…! Yeah, it’s so sad that Roger passed away so early, I never got to see him alive, I was just a little kid when all this stuff happened…

AL HODGSON: But you know, I was surprised that he lived that long. See, he had the Hodgkin’s disease.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Yeah, he was looking pretty ill and thin in some of those later pictures…

AL HODGSON: Now, I know about Hodgkin’s disease. Francis’ grandmother had it. Terrible, terrible death.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: It’s a form of cancer, it’s debilitating, how is it, in the lymph system…?

AL HODGSON: Yeah. From what I can recall they said she had bumps, all over her body.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Roger was such a strong guy, known for his physical performance in rodeo and acrobatics and things like that.

AL HODGSON: Oh yeah, yeah yeah, oh yeah...

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And he really lasted a long time. He was ill before the movie was even shot.

AL HODGSON: And what they did, and he told me was, and, I didn’t ever expect to see him again. Because of knowing what happened to Francis’ grandmother. But then, John Green told me was, he had this chemo, and he thought he’d die, almost did die, from the chemo, but it brought him through it, and after that, he got the film after that.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And he was kind of a health nut, drinking lots of juice, and nuts and berries and stuff. He just wanted to cure himself. He was a really determined guy, and… Everyone likes to think of him as either a hero or a hoaxer. What was your feeling about Roger when meeting him, as far as his character and his honesty, or his sense of humor, or whatever you want to say about him?

Image: Roger Patterson with the Bluff Creek Patty footprint casts. Archival. Some say this photo was taken by Larry Lund, in Yakima, WA after their return from Bluff Creek... is it true?

AL HODGSON: I never seen a bad side to him at all. That’s not to say that he wouldn’t be the guy that would, might have a good time with a joke sometimes. Most of us would. But serious things like that [Bigfoot], I’d say NO. I don’t think he would have, or from what I seen…

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And he was serious about finding Bigfoot, too…

AL HODGSON: Oh yeah, he was. That’s right.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: He wasn’t out to do something fake. He believed in it.

AL HODGSON: And you can see all of the evidence, that research that went into his book, there’s quite a lot there.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And especially in that time, the Abominable Snowmen [Legend Come to Life] book by Ivan Sanderson came out in 1961, and this [Roger's] was pretty much the next book. And they’re still calling it the "Abominable Snowman," not "Bigfoot." Even though Bigfoot got started in 1958, that’s when that word got out, from here…

AL HODGSON: Anyway, it was, now, I never had any reason to think that Roger was not up and above board. Now that doesn’t mean that I know it all either…

BIGFOOT BOOKS: But you had conversations, too, and he came in and talked to you a lot about Bigfoot and…

AL HODGSON: Yeah, many times.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: He was down here how many times, like before the film? Do you remember?

AL HODGSON: I can’t remember.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: It’s several?

AL HODGSON: Yeah, several.

Image: Historical, Roger and Bob Gimlin pose with the casts they made at the site of the Bluff Creek film.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: There were at least three that I read about, that he was down here. And Bob Gimlin, too, did you meet him?

AL HODGSON: I can’t say I remember seeing Bob before the film. Now I don’t say, or didn’t, I don’t remember.

C. I.: Had you met Roger and Bob in town that October before that night they came in with the film? Had they stopped in previously on that trip?

AL HODGSON: No, no. See, what I think they did... I called, and then I didn’t see them until afterwards. The reason being, they came down from the north, down the 96, I-5 from Yreka down the 96. So they didn’t have any reason to come out here, and I didn’t see ‘em until afterwards.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: But you are the guy who called, after the Blue Creek Mountain tracks? And John Green had talked to you, right, and had left and gone back to Canada. That would have been late August to early September, according to John Green’s book.

AL HODGSON: Yeah, I think so. It was still summer.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And after that you called?

Images: Above, one of the BCM trackway prints (looking suspiciously like one of the footprint stompers that Ray Wallace made--or did Wallace copy these?) Below, Patty on Bluff Creek. MK, if you want to see RED just look at those red leaves in the background--you don't NEED "three clicks" of exaggeration.

AL HODGSON: Yeah, he asked me to call, and I didn’t know John and Roger’s--they might be at each others’ throats or something else--and so I didn’t want to call and talk to ‘em. So I waited until John left and I called Roger, and Roger said, well, I said they probably left the area by now. And he, Roger, said, "Well, I think I’ll come down anyway. I’ve been wanting to come down anyway," and he came down. I understand that, and I didn’t know this, but Gimlin had to make arrangements, because he’d been working. He couldn’t just take off and go. So, he had to make arrangements before he could go, and so that delayed them coming down a little bit. And that’s one of the reason it wasn’t until October that they finally got the film.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Apparently he said he had an on-and-off job, like he would work two weeks, and then have two weeks off, or something?

AL HODGSON: Yeah, yeah. And he had to have someone cover for him. I don’t know.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: So, definitely, you called and it was in September by then, and they came down probably a few weeks later?

AL HODGSON: Well, I don’t know exactly when they came down…

BIGFOOT BOOKS: You don’t know, they didn’t call you when they came in? They definitely called you on October 20th, after the film. When you called, if you remember, when you called did you talk to Patricia Patterson at first or was it Roger at home? You’ve probably heard this question before.

AL HODGSON: I don’t know. I don’t remember.

Image: Promotional photo of Al from the Willow Creek-China Flat Museum, home of the Bigfoot Collection Al helped to establish. It houses the Bob Titmus materials, and current rumor has it that it may also hold the John Green archives someday (hopefully that day is a long ways off).

BIGFOOT BOOKS: I think that’s one of the ones that Bill Miller asked you from our questions list…

AL HODGSON: Yeah I just don’t remember. I can’t say. I’d like to say “yes” on the phone, but I just can’t do that.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Yeah, because… there’s that issue that, you know, that people want to prove that Patterson was there at the same time as these guys, and that he participated in “The Massacre,” and…

AL HODGSON: I know, I know. Well, you know, see, they’re trying to, for whatever reason… I don’t know why they’re trying to do this!

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Well, it’s accusing them of murder, isn’t it? Because they’re the very same people that believe Bigfoot is human, MK and Dave Paulides, they’re both “Human” believers.

AL HODGSON: Ah yeah, Paulides is. But that’s just because of what Paulides has seen and heard, down the river [in Hoopa], that’s where they get that idea; but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it is. But, besides that, no one knew that before, either, at that time. They didn’t know what Paulides knows now. And so, if they killed one, it wasn’t necessarily because of, premeditated, in other words, it wasn’t a…

BIGFOOT BOOKS: A self-defense kind of thing. MK likes to say it was not a massacre, it was more like self-defense. But then in June, this last summer, he told me that they were hired by a logging company to go and kill the Sasquatches because they were getting in the way...
AL HODGSON: Ohhh boyyy. [Groans]

BIGFOOT BOOKS: …and so this story has changed on several occasions, its kind of slowly evolving. And now it’s just gotten out of hand. The GCBRO guys have a video [interview] that MK took of you, and they’re presenting little clips of it, like where “Al Hodgson proves that this dog was an attack dog and vicious” and…

Image: John Green on BCM, with the "killer" dog, White Lady. Yeah, right, MK! That smiling dog John is petting sure looks vicious to me.

AL HODGSON: I didn’t prove it, but when I, I don’t know where he got that. We met the plane, up there [in Orleans, in August 1967], I took my station wagon up and we met the plane. My oldest son, Mike, he and the handler, I guess, was in the back, and then, maybe there was three of them back there. John and I, I was driving, and then Dahinden. Four adults and one….
BIGFOOT BOOKS: Then this guy [showing the pilot photo, see image] wasn’t with you at the time?

AL HODGSON: Ah, I don’t think so. I don’t know who he is! [It is known that the pilot stayed in Orleans for the first part of the trip, and was only up on the BCM site later, after they returned to Orleans for phone calls.]

BIGFOOT BOOKS: John Green says “Thanks to Al Hodgson we were met with provisions at the Orleans airport.” And then it doesn’t really say whether you actually came out or not.

AL HODGSON: Well, John doesn’t remember it that way. He doesn't remember that I... He said that Pat Butram came with a Jeep for him. Well, Pat Butram didn't even know that this was going on at the time. My brother, well, Pat Butram was a school teacher, and my brother was a school teacher, and they knew each other, they were friends. And anyway, apparently, what happened was that Butram and my brother, and my brother's passed away so I can't go back to him, they... I don't know about Butram, he was up in Canada and so I don't know whether he still is or not. But anyway, they apparently went up the next day and they had a Jeep, and Butram went back with Jack, and left the Jeep for John. And that's where it comes in, the Jeep. But I took them up there. In fact I talked to them, I...

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Would that be their Jeep right there? [Shows the image MK Davis uses, with the truck and red Jeep in the background.]

AL HODGSON: I don't remember. I don't have any idea. But, I talked to my son the other night, and I said, Mike, tell me, do you remember the incident of us going up there in Orleans, and picking them up, and taking them up there. And he says, the only thing I remember is going up to the airport, because that was such an uphill airport. You had to land uphill. And they used to kid about it, because, they kidded about flying into Orleans, because you landed there straight up, coming in. Taking off, you had to fly around the barn!

BIGFOOT BOOKS: It was kind of a narrow approach, wasn't it?

AL HODGSON: Yeah, yeah. Anyway, he was impressed with how steep it was. He remembered that. And I think that's about all he remembered. And I said, I'm not giving out your name. Now, he has kind of a sensitive job. He's in the software industry, and he doesn't always get paid to be a...

BIGFOOT BOOKS: "Bigfoot-associated"?

AL HODGSON: And I said, I do not give your phone number out, I tell them whatever information I can, but I will not give your phone number out. I just wouldn't do it.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: So, basically, you went back to Willow Creek after that. You didn't go up to Blue Creek Mountain and look at the tracks that time?

AL HODGSON: No, I had the store to run, and I went back down. And that night Francis closed the store, and the next day I had to open it up and, no, so I was busy. And I did not go back up. Now, I remembered, and I can't even think of the guy's name now, that came down from the Museum, and I can't even remember now, Provincial Museum, or something like that...?

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Oh, Abbott? Don Abbott, I think.

AL HODGSON: Yeah. Abbott, yeah.

Images: Above, topo of the Orleans area, CLICK TO ENLARGE. Also, Don Abbott on the BCM site, removing a track that has been solidified in the ground with glue.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: He took a few days to get down, from B.C.

AL HODGSON: They had to get a hold of him and they, it took some time.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: John Green says, kind of vaguely, two days or so, Don arrived, and while they were waiting they heard about the tracks that were down on the sandbar, that were supposedly a few hundred yards downstream from the PGF site that... was going to be filmed later. So, then what happened after that...? Where were we?

AL HODGSON: I don't remember.

C.I.: We're still at John Green's second trip, in the summer of '67.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Yeah, well, just going back to the timeline, in late August he came down here for the Onion Mountain stuff, and then left after, I assume, a few days. He doesn't say how long he was down here.

AL HODGSON: I don't even know if I saw him, when he was down, or not.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: It just says late August. He came down with that dog [White Lady, the tracking dog], then, and he said he met you...

AL HODGSON: Well, he might have.

Image: One of Roger Patterson's pre-PGF illustrations of a female Bigfoot creature.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: At that time, meets Al of Willow Creek, and also meets Mrs. Ryerson, and then drove back to Canada.

AL HODGSON: It's possible that I seen him, that, they were coming, those guys came into the store quite often...

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Well, my bookstore, I don't do that either. Eventually it starts to sink in, you get to know enough people, it starts to sink in, so that, oh, that's Ken, the Bigfoot guy, who has a Sasquatch on his property over in Oden Flat. After seeing him about ten times, he's slowly starting to tell me more and more.

AL HODGSON: True.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: But from this point I want to have a tape recorder, and record all these stories...

AL HODGSON: [Laughs]

BIGFOOT BOOKS: ...because, maybe somebody's going to ask me questions when I'm 80 and I'm going to go, I don't remember that! What are you talking about? I don't always remember the day after it happened, always, and...

AL HODGSON: It's hard to remember, and I'm amazed I remember as much as I do!

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Well, you're sharp as can be, I think.


AL HODGSON: Well, I don't know about that [Laughs], but I know I'm, it's, I dunno...

C.I.: It's great to have this opportunity, to get some more questions on record, for the future. And these, these crazy stories on the internet... will come and go.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Ohhhhh! Well, some of those things I don't even mess with.

C.I.: Well, some of them are just based on the silliest of minor technicalities. It's almost not worth the time.

AL HODGSON: Well, those are people that have nothing to do! That's why I say, I got more to do than to mess with...

Images: Above, Al Hodgson walks in front of Hodgson's Store, Willow Creek, before it closed and the building became home to a clinic. Below, the Museum's sign proclaiming Bigfoot and Historical Exhibits. Al was a curator, and is still involved. Taken from an A-and-E television documentary.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Now, MK did such good work with the film analysis...

AL HODGSON: I know!

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And you could say the same thing about Dave. Paulides did such great work with interviewing all of those people out in Hoopa. I don't understand, like this email that was sent to you. All of a sudden. He said something along the same lines to me, about the Ray Crowe archives and the film. But this got leaked out, you know, from Dave Paulides to you, from June, this last year. Anyway:
“I actually got my hands on a fairly old copy of the P-G film, full-framed, with segments on it nobody has seen...” (except for John Green, or people who saw the documentary), “...It is in the hands of experts, and many of our impressions of what occurred is [sic] playing out.” But he says that, “I actually believe that John Green and Gimlin are harboring a very, very dark secret, really.”

AL HODGSON: Yeah, I, I, leaked that to John Green...

BIGFOOT BOOKS: So, you're the one he sent it to...

AL HODGSON: And that's when the fires started flying.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And what did you feel when you got that email from him? And was there any precedent for it?

AL HODGSON: I told him, it was wrong. I told him that that's not right. There's no way. And I told him why. But you know, sometimes you can get something in your mind that's so tough it is hard to, regardless. But I know better. But I, MK was somethin'... he had the habit of coming here late at night, ten o'clock in the evening, at night, and wanting to talk to me.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: All the way from Mississippi?

AL HODGSON: And it was OK, but not all the time, you know. There's times you cannot help. But this last time he was telling about how, they killed one and this is a skin over here, and it was buried, and uh.... And I said, in the first place, what did they do with the skin? What did they do with it? They buried it. But why? Why skin it if you're going to do something else with it. And what about the carcass? They buried it. With what? A backhoe! And I said, wait a minute. There's no backhoe down in that creek. And I said, I was there the next spring and there was no tracks.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: MK sees like one rut, that's near a log, and he told me that that's the tire track, and I'm saying, where's the rest of the tire tracks...

AL HODGSON: That's right.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And why didn't anybody else report all of this construction activity when they went...

AL HODGSON: But that's, that picture, beginning with, that's Blue Creek Mountain, and the film site was down in the creek.

Images: From Dahinden BCM film and the Patterson film, lettering applied by MK Davis.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: So those pictures you saw earlier, they're on the Blue Creek Mountain, and you're going to be seeing road conditions like that out there, with the tire tracks and all. But in the actual film [the PGF] he sees blood on the ground, and...

AL HODGSON: Yeah, I know.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And also, this is all green foliage in these pictures, but they’re claiming that the P-G film was taken in an earlier period. But as a local you’ve obviously seen the color of the leaves, like, there’s yellow and red and brownish…

AL HODGSON: Well, John was going to call me about that, let me know about that time of year, was there frost, we got, was it leaves turning at that elevation. What I did, I went and checked the elevation up there, and then found a place here about the same elevation.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: That’s about three thousand to five thousand feet, approximately…

AL HODGSON: Well, the creek is not that high.

C.I.: The creekbed is about twenty five [thousand feet] or so…

AL HODGSON: Very similar. Not quite three thousand.

Image: One of the OM-BCM tracks in dirt roadway conditions. Archival.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: So we’re talking pretty close to our local hills here.

AL HODGSON: Yeah. And at early October the leaves are turning red up there.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Yeah, and yellow. And anyone who has traveled on the 299 or lives here you know that fall has come. I mean, September and August are really summer, and all of a sudden in October, with the first cold snap, those leaves suddenly start turning yellow…

AL HODGSON: That’s right.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And NOT before,

AL HODGSON: No, September they really don’t. It seems like it’s October, and now, some years, it might be a little later.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Plus or minus a few days, or weeks or…

AL HODGSON: That’s right.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: I’ve been living up here, or coming up here, since ’93 or so, and I always remember the fall leaves. It’s always October.

AL HODGSON: I like this map here. [Looks at the Six Rivers Forest Atlas] You got it down at the station?

Image: Bluff Creek headwaters area, image from C.I.'s GPS unit. CLICK TO ENLARGE.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Yeah, from the ranger down at the station. Since we’ve mentioned the ranger, can we talk about that night of October 20th, 1967? There are all these questions about the timeline, and apparently Roger came and told you that they went over Martin’s Ferry Bridge? And there’s questions about whether you could go over the Bald Hills Road, or go to Eureka over the 299, coming down the 96. And also, these other things, whether there was an airport used or a post office…. I’m sure you’ve heard this a million times, but it would be really good to clear it up, I think.

AL HODGSON: Well, I try to; but the thing of it is, I can’t. You know one thing, the road was open. You could go over the Martin’s Ferry Bridge at that time. You go Bald Hills and go out to Orick, and then you go to Eureka. They used to go into Eureka that way, but I don’t know if they would save any time, or not. They told me, Roger told me they mailed the film at the post office, it was the main post office at that time. It’s there on, ah…

BIGFOOT BOOKS: In Eureka, that big red brick building there? It’s like three or four stories tall.

AL HODGSON: Yeah, it’s on 4th Street. It’s on H Street, and I can’t remember what, maybe it was 5th or 6th or…. Yeah, anyway, he told me he mailed it there.

Image: historical, the Eureka Post Office, 1910, where Roger told Al the P-G film was mailed. Below, Bald Hills, Humboldt County, photo by Steven Streufert.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Now how could… I’m not saying he’s lying or making up something, or you’re not remembering correctly, but I’ve always been puzzled by that. The post offices probably closed at 5:00 then, as they do now. Right? How could they have done that if they left around 3:30? Is what Bob Gimlin says…?

AL HODGSON: It wasn’t three thirty. [Talking over interlocutor]

BIGFOOT BOOKS: …and came into Willow Creek…? Oh, they left from Louse Camp area where they were camped, and got out over the road and into, well, over Bald Hills Road or else over the 96 coming into Willow Creek. And Gimlin in his 1992 interview with John Green says he came from the film site to town to see Al Hodgson, which I assume, “town” meaning Willow Creek first. Is that how it happened?

AL HODGSON: No, no. Now, I should say, I don’t want to say that wasn’t how it happened, that wasn’t what Roger told me. Roger told me that they went over Bald Hills, over to Orick, and then to Eureka. Now, could they make it there before the post office was closed. Yeah. I think, but whether they could make it there, and then over to Willow Creek by that same time, well, I don’t know. By shortly after 6:00?

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Well, it took me almost two hours to from up near the Bluff Creek Bridge or whatever, to go up over the Bald Hills Road over to Orick, it took me like an hour and forty minutes. And then it’s like forty some [more] miles from there into Eureka. And probably out from the film site to the 96 it’s got to be at least a half an hour, I would estimate closer to an hour to get out on those dirt roads. So, I mean, it’s like 3:30, 4:30, 5:30… they’re not getting into Eureka until it’s like 7:00 or something, on that route. Whereas if I come down by Willow Creek, it’s only about thirty miles from Willow Creek to Weitchpec and the Bluff Creek area there. But, right by the road to Fish Lake, it’s 29 miles.

AL HODGSON: I never tried it. I thought, how can you make it down there and back to Willow Creek, and make it back by shortly after 6:00?

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Well, you were working and you went home. You came home and it was like 6:15 or so, and you were cooking hot dogs on the barbecue, and…

AL HODGSON: Well, I, that’s again, I started to build a fire. But that was, I don’t know exactly what time. I’d usually close the store at like 6:00, and it takes me a little bit of time to close, and get mopped up, and take the money to the bank, and then came home. It probably was 6:30 by the time I got home. That’s a guess…

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Well, that adds fifteen minutes, because a lot of people say 6:15…

AL HODGSON: Well, it’s possible, see. I don’t know. But I have no way of knowing.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: You don’t know, aside from what Roger said about going over Bald Hills and stuff, is it possible that they came to see you first?

AL HODGSON: No, I don’t think so, because, unless they went back after… See, what they told me was, they were anxious to get back to the horses. And when Syl McCoy called and wanted to meet with them, and we talked then for some time, oh, I don’t know, and hour, maybe two maybe.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And they had already delivered the film at that point…

AL HODGSON: That’s right.

Image: The Byrne film site photo, featuring Mike Hodgson, Al's son. The two below the maps are by Green and Dahinden, respectively. Historical.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: So maybe Bob Gimlin’s recollection isn’t correct.

AL HODGSON: Well, I wouldn’t say that is wrong. It’s possible. It’s possible that Roger, that Bob’s time when they left up there is a guess. Maybe no, maybe he’s wrong? I don’t know.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Things are tricky in that canyon, too…

AL HODGSON: That’s right.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: …you can be down in there at the film site and feel like it’s much later.

AL HODGSON: Yep.

C.I: Personal experience there, boy. I think everyone who’s been up that creek…

AL HODGSON: Well you’re down there, that canyon’s so steep…

C.I.: Exactly. It’s deceptively steep, and the sun disappears very quickly.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And it was getting dark, he [Gimlin] said it was already getting dark when they left. I mean, starting to, but that could have been in the afternoon with the sun disappearing behind the canyon wall.

AL HODGSON: And it doesn’t take long when it starts getting dark in there.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And it was also Fall, and the days were shorter. I don’t know if there was daylight savings back then…

Images: Three film site location estimates, Perez after Dahinden, from Barackman, and our own rough estimate, below. Estimate only! CLICK TO ENLARGE.

AL HODGSON: Yeah, but I’m not sure how long it lasted at that time.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: I’ll have to do some research and…

AL HODGSON: It used to be that it wasn’t quite as long as it is today.

C.I.: Now, we spend more of the year on savings time than on regular time. It had changed over the years and ah… We’d, several of us had discussed that question a few years ago, when we were there on the anniversary of the date. So the sun should be in the same position… at that point, thirty-eight years later, I guess

AL HODGSON: Yeah, that’s true.

C.I.: Now, the area we were in, the north bank would be in shadow before 2:00, and at that point it wouldn’t look like the film does. But we were operating probably more upstream than the area you’ve showed us on the map and talked about. So the light could be a lot different. We were in an area that was basically running almost due east, due west to due east. And the sun was pretty much behind us, being blocked by the ridge.

AL HODGSON: Oh yeah…

C.I.: And if we were further downstream, where the creek is more north-south, then there would be more light. It wouldn’t be blocked quite as soon.

AL HODGSON: There’d be more light late…

C.I.: And that makes the location a little more important for finding the exact time this thing happened…

AL HODGSON: And then you know… And then another thing that I found out, too, and I didn’t find this out until, I don’t know if too many people know it either…. There’s this man up here, he was a logger, and he had a cabin down near the bottom of there where you come out there onto the highway, down Bluff Creek. They had a trailer, they were fallers, this guy and another fellow had a trailer, because they lived here down in Willow Creek, or Salyer rather. And so they stayed in this trailer over the week, while they’re…. And they said that Roger Patterson and Bob stopped at their trailer and asked them if they could take a shower. Apparently it was because they was all muddy from getting that, pulling the truck out, up there, when it rained there that next night. Now that isn’t the timeline that they took the film in, but they left out there and they come out. Now I don’t know if this will make any difference to anybody. But apparently this happened. By the time I found out about it, he and his partner had both now passed away, so I…

BIGFOOT BOOKS: You can’t really verify it.

AL HODGSON: I knew him very well, in fact I knew his brother, his twin brother, and his twin brother told me about it. And before that I didn’t know. So anyway, for what it’s worth, that’s apparently what happened. And that was the reason they had got that backhoe that night, to get themselves out, and they were filthy. [Laughs]

BIGFOOT BOOKS: The backhoe was up, not where MK Davis supposedly says, not down on the sandbar; but from my understanding they got out across the flooded creek, where they were camped on the opposite side of the road, and it was going up the hills toward Onion Mountain Road—there’s constant mudslides and stuff in there—that was my understanding of where they had [to use] the backhoe, up on that road there. It was used in the Blue Creek Mountain construction, not down in the creekbed.

AL HODGSON: Yep, oh yeah, not, definitely not. And like I said, there’s no evidence of it being in there the next spring at all. Period. And I say I was there. I know it wasn’t. And you know something? I don’t know, some people will never be satisfied.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Yeah, they won’t. Especially the skeptics, though.

AL HODGSON: Yeahhh!

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Like, I believe Roger and Bob were telling the truth. And I also look at the film and I see a real-looking creature. It’s hard to imagine it being faked.

AL HODGSON: I don’t know…

BIGFOOT BOOKS: But the skeptics write books about this stuff, and they say it must be a hoax because the timeline is wrong, or because the timeline is wrong they must be lying and therefore they massacred Bigfoots.

AL HODGSON: [LOL]

BIGFOOT BOOKS: You know, and all these confusing, all these uncertainties lead to false ideas. So I just try to look at the simplest thing. To me the simplest thing would be to drive to Willow Creek, talk to Al, and then drive to the airport. Because the post offices would have been closed, wouldn’t they? How could they send it from the post office?

AL HODGSON: Well that was something I… All I ever say is what they told me.

Image: Or was the PGF sent from the airport? Here, Murray Field just outside of Eureka. Chris Murphy and Thomas Steenburg confirmed in 2003 that they did have 24-hour courier services available there in 1967. Photo, Steven Streufert.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: But do you remember though if the post offices were open until five, or six, or perhaps a little later?

AL HODGSON: It’s possible, that one down there…

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Oh, the main office may have been open late?

AL HODGSON: That’s right.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Because it’s the city center and…

AL HODGSON: Oh, you know, there’s something else, too. They used to have mailers for that, you could just take your film and put it in a sock, and it would go out.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: A bag? A little bag to hold it?

AL HODGSON: Yeah a little bag, a little thing, and you put it in this package thing... In fact that post office there had one of those there, because I’d used it.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And how would you pay for it, I mean if you were using Air Mail or Air Mail Express it must have cost a bit of money?

AL HODGSON: Those bags were pre-printed, they had pre-postage on them.

C.I.: Right.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Oh, so you would get them from a machine, or something?

AL HODGSON: Yeah, you would get them where you got your film.

C.I.: A lot of the film and the slides, it was a pre-paid mailer from Kodak or whomever made the film.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Yeah, maybe, huh? You could just drop it right in.

C.I.: Yeah, but would that have gotten the film by air mail to Seattle or whatever…?

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Al, I know your weren’t part of that, you were…

AL HODGSON: Yeah, it’s one of those things that you don’t know.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: I would just like to see all of the uncertainty cleared up, so we could just have the film without all of this garbage surrounding it!

AL HODGSON: Yeah, well, me too. But there’s just no way that you can get all of it. That’s one thing that I really have a problem, not a problem with, but all I can really say is this is what I remember, and that’s all I can do. But anyway, I just don’t, there’s nothing that I know that I can say, or I wish that I had something more that could clear it up but…

BIGFOOT BOOKS: You’re just one guy, and you know, and you were part of part of it.

AL HODGSON: Yeah, I know. Yeah.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And everyone wants Al Hodgson to come out, and like be Superman, and save us, you know?

AL HODGSON: [Laughs out Loud] I laughed at this, one lady, and I can’t even remember her name right now, but she worked on this Symposium here [the 2003 International Bigfoot Symposium, which Al helped organize]. I worked with her for a while, and she got upset and quit before it was over. And she said, “Al’s a Bigfoot expert by DEFAULT, just because he was here.” [Laughs] And it’s about the truth!

BIGFOOT BOOKS: But you did go into looking into it, you were up in Bluff Creek and you found those footprints by Notice Creek there? [In 1963, see documentation HERE.]
AL HODGSON: Yeah. But I didn’t do much. I did some, but I didn’t do that much. And I, I guess you’d say, I didn’t have a passion to do every little thing, you see what I’m saying?

BIGFOOT BOOKS: You had other things going on in your life?

AL HODGSON: Ah, yes, I did.

Images: A page from Jeff Meldrum's Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science, featuring Al's prints; below, Jerry Crew in the News--the original Humboldt Times 1958 article, front page, and another image of him with the track cast.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Like church and family, business… three different shop locations!

AL HODGSON: Church and… business was a big thing. It took up a lot of my time.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: But you know, in the early days you knew Jerry Crew…

AL HODGSON: Oh yeah.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: He went to your church, as I recall?

AL HODGSON: Yeah, I knew Jerry. The thing is it got me…. And this is something I have to tell you. You know when Jerry made that film, OK?—I mean the casts, the casts—OK? They went up on Saturday, there were three of them up there, and they didn’t take any plaster of paris with them, and they said, what would make… plaster of paris, and they said OK…. So they came back to Willow Creek. And it was too late to go back again Saturday, so they went back up Sunday. But only two of them went back up Sunday. The third one was a pastor, and he had to preach the next day. [Laughs]

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And so he didn’t come up that second time.

AL HODGSON: No uh-uh. But that’s where that went. There are other things, too, that go into this. I don’t think I’ve ever told anybody about this… but there was a fourth guy, really, that had been, in fact he was a partner of Jerry’s. And I knew him, but I didn’t realize he had anything to do with that, until I found out his wife, his widow afterwards, was really upset about it, because Jerry hogged up all this and he was left out of it. Anyway, he and Jerry worked, I think they had a Cat together [e.g., owned a Caterpillar tractor] or something, I’m not sure what it was. But anyway, I knew him before I left Arcata even, I was still working in Arcata. I got to know him, I knew his name, ah, and now I can’t remember.

But anyways, I knew him. I worked for Humboldt Machine Works, and we sold him oxy-acetylene, and quite often he came in and got oxy-acetylene, and I knew him that way. But I didn’t realize he had anything to do with it, until I ran into his widow one night, or one day, in the mall in Eureka. And she told me, she was, well, I can’t remember what exactly she did tell me, but she was upset because Jerry hogged all the, uh, In fact, he was there, but, and Jerry went up on a weekend and made the film, the casts, and they left him clear out of it. And she was upset, and I haven’t… She’s since passed away. She has a daughter, and a son that lives in Redding. And I’ve talked to him once… I didn’t… oh, I know what it was, he stopped by the Museum one day, at the Bigfoot Museum. And I talked to him about it. And that’s the first I knew about it. He didn’t say much about it, he just said, well, maybe I oughtn’t to get into this. And then later I talked to his mother, his sister, and then I found out that they were upset. Because Jerry left them out of it. But I don’t know why, I don’t know anything else.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: No one was really getting anything out of it, were they?

AL HODGSON: No. It’s too bad, too bad it happened that way, anyway. It’s too bad. I’m gonna have to see if I can’t find out his name. I thought about it this morning, now I can’t even think of it. But the son, I think works in Redding, so if I can I will contact him. Nice guy. Nice guy, and I liked his dad, too. I got to know him fairly well, but I had no idea there was any connection there between, on Bigfoot at all. But it turned out to be, Jerry was well known…. Another one that was Jess, oh, Jess Beamis is the one I was thinking of, and can’t think of what the name of his son was. Jess was the father and then the name of his son was Beamis, but I can’t remember what it was. But the other guy I was thinking of was Jess Pascal. He was the one that was with Jerry when he made the casts. And he had a cast, but he never, he kind of stayed out of it.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Now, these guys weren’t trying to get rich and famous or anything?

AL HODGSON: No, no. Well, Jerry wasn’t, really…

BIGFOOT BOOKS: And he was a humble man, honest, straight-forward kind of guy, didn’t go out of his way to seek attention. Right? That’s the impression I get…

Image: The Willow Creek-China Flat Museum's Jerry Crew display.

AL HODGSON: Yeah, yeah. He was, Jerry was a nice guy. And he was a… have you ever heard of Child Evangelism? Anyway, he was, he used to have a bus, and go and pick the kids up, and he would pick ‘em up and…

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Like church camp?

AL HODGSON: Down here for ah [unintelligible], and he’d take ‘em home, and so, he was a nice kind of guy. And his wife, Ruth, she could whistle, and she could whistle a tune. Beautiful. It was a treat to hear her whistle.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Did you whistle for Sasquatches?

AL HODGSON: [Laughs] Ah, I don’t know about that, but could whistle, she’d just whistle tunes. But Jerry was a nice guy. I liked Jerry. And I liked Jess Beamis, too, by the way, and his partner Jess Pascal. But Jess and his brother, they were nice guys, but they were…. They worked for Charles Whitson, down here, where the Whitson’s are at, they worked for him.

Image: Another image of the film site, taken from the dirt logging spur road above.

BIGFOOT BOOKS: Whitson the plumber?

AL HODGSON: Yeah, they were plumbers. And the backhoe, they, one or both of ‘em worked the backhoe, I can’t remember now. But anyway, you had to be careful or they’d be out on the job and they were able to convert you to Christianity before they got through! Ah, it was OK, but it was—and I believe in Christ by the way—but I do not, I’m not a [unintelligible] one, but by the third or fourth one, you know, I dunno, and that’s when I got into this book here…

(01:30:30 of 02:17:11, continuing)

[And here Al pats the other book on the table, BEFORE THE DELUGE, a book on Biblical history. And here we must come to the end of PART TWO.]

Image: Yet another Bluff Creek map, this one in wider scale, film site above the second "NA" in "National."
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COMING UP NEXT WEEK, same Squatch Time, same Squatch Channel, More Odd Questions for Al: How did they get Sasquatches onto Noah’s Ark? How did Noah find them in the first place? And much, much MORE!
PART THREE TO FOLLOW SOON, SO KEEP CHECKING BACK (or just subscribe)!
Transcribing this is an incredibly hard slog.
UPDATE!!! PART THREE of the INTERVIEW is now up! Available HERE.

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ANGRY BIGFOOT SPEAKS!

... is still hibernating this week.
And, man, is he pissed! You should see his dreams.
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Con-texts of this blog, save for archival or historical images ("fair use" for research), copyright 2010, Bigfoot Books Intergalactic and Steven Streufert.
Please feel free to quote with citation and link to this blog included.
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